As to your other points…

I would be inclined not to support concessions for consumers as a whole, because the new carbon price signal needs to act across the economy in order to be effective. However it would certainly be good policy to provide compensation and assistance for low-income earners (who will pay a higher amount for carbon relative to their income) and for workers who lose jobs as the carbon industries wind down.

There are many other objections to the ETS currently before parliament. For starters: the free pollution permits you mentioned in the post are to be almost exclusively allocated to the most polluting industries, thereby making the perverse incentives you describe all the more perverse. Secondly, the 5% emission reduction target proposed by the government is so laughably low that no one in Copenhagen is going to take us seriously, despite Penny Wong’s protestations about needing a CPRS in place before the COP.

It seems clear that the polluting industries have had altogether too much influence over the shape of the proposed CPRS, and even the woefully inadequate Waxman-Markey bill in the US looks like a model of responsibility compared to what the Australian government is trying to foist on us today. Greg Combet admitted as much in a press conference last week: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25889451-5000117,00.html

I’m glad I now have some real figures to these questions – I ask myself a lot about the margins involved in cafes – a friend runs one, but they’re so busy I feel bad about asking those kind of questions, much as they fascinate me (truly).

So what you’re saying, then, is that the cost of the cup outweighs the extra cost of the milk, or equals the cost of the extra coffee if they do an extra shot (assuming they have chosen not to mark-up their standard large cup more than $0.50).

Just to note – most places I’ve been to don’t do extra shots in large mugs, but I agree they should, and I now often ask for a strong coffee in the large mug.

Re: the Take Away costing less – I completely agree. My partner and I have often wondered the same: “doesn’t it cost more for takeaway?” I suppose the reasoning goes is that you’re not taking up floorspace – therefore rent – by having in. But that strikes me as a tough equation to really work out…

while I agree with what you are saying (I own a cafe on the North Shore), and we encourage our customers to come in with their own mugs for the sake of the environment (in fact we give 60c discount if they use one of our thermos travel mugs.), I feel I must point out that your ‘cost assumptions’ are actually wide of the mark.

A small Take Away cup will cost around 19cents inclusive of GST and lid. The large cups (which hold the equivalent to a standard coffee mug found in most kitchen cupboards) work out at about 23cents with lid inc GST.

If you are paying for a ’small’ coffee and asking them to put it into your mug, then if they filled it up to the top, it would be costing them approximately another 12c in milk that you are not paying for. If you are paying for their large size, then obviously they should be filling it up!!!!

Another thing to note is that they should also be putting 2 shots of coffee into that mug as its volume is over 200ml, otherwise you are going to end up with something that more closely resembles something from Gloria Jeans (ie coffee coloured milk) rather than a decent coffee!

I wonder if in the half filled cup you only got 1 shot of coffee therefore the barista was actually doing a ‘good job’ by keeping the espresso shot to milk ratios correct?… that said, if you paid for a large then you were ripped off!

Another factor is that most cafes simply don’t charge enough for a large coffee! Dont all scream at once!!! Let me explain….

Most only charge 50c extra between the two sizes yet the cost to produce a large take away vs regular is an extra 30ml of coffee (25cents) and 90ml of milk (12cents) plus extra 4 cents on the cup and an extra 5 cents GST, ie 46 cents = 4 cents extra profit out of the 50c charged to the customer.

When you factor in that it takes longer to make the large coffee (the volume of milk physically takes longer to steam to the correct temperature) and you factor in the baristas time to make that drink, there is in effect ZERO extra profit in a large coffee.

This leads me onto the question of why customers expect Take Away coffees to cost less? The reality is a take away coffee actually costs more to make than an eat in because of the packaging costs associated even when you cost it out against the electricity associated with using the dishwasher to was porcelain eat in cups!

1. Another reason you might take your own mug is taste – i.e. it tastes better than from a paper cup. This is true. But in any case, the same thing applies – using a paper cup would kill the crema and taint the espresso.

2. Cordial don’t actually offer a discount – it’s a discount for takeaway that I was getting confused with. I do recall the UTS cafe providing a discount if you brought your own cup though…

Bertoni (Balmain) only half-filled the mug. The Common Ground cafe (I can’t remember the real name, also Balmain) was the paper cup and questioned whether it was a standard size mug.

Cordial cafe on Carillon Newtown is my fave.

But The Wall in Surry Hills is just as dodgy – charging an extra $0.50 to fill up the mug – and only then with a huff and a puff. It’s happened at other places as well.

Single Origin and City Edge cafes in Surry Hills were also good – they didn’t charge any extra and 95% of the time filled it right up.